Comments on: Zittrain debate at New America Foundation (11/6, 3:30)

By: Adam Thierer

Adam Thierer — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:41:16 +0000

Video of the debate is now online:

http://techliberation.com/2008/11/06/video-of-m...

By: Kevin Donovan

Kevin Donovan — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:36:09 +0000

Hardly meant this to be a debate, but:

I still think you are missing JZ's point. Your insistence on OSI being "much
more rich" than TCP/IP is hardly relevant. JZ's thesis isn't about richness
or completeness of offering, it's about generativity. In fact, he spends
considerable time discussing how simple, open offerings can be the basis for
generative platforms. Perhaps by offering so much, OSI limited what third
parties could do; that is, they influenced outside innovation in the same
way the iPhone or TiVo does. Through your declarations about the history of
network architectures, it sure seems that DoD freed (made more open) TCP/IP
which was less rich (determined) than OSI. And that, is the key ingredient
that allowed the net to take off.

But, hey, what do I know?

By: Richard Bennett

Richard Bennett — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:19:32 +0000

In my experience, trying to correct Wikipedia is a massive waste of time. Whoever put the bad information out has an interest in keeping it there. This has been documented ad infinitum.

Study, learn, and then debate. It works.

By: Kevin Donovan

Kevin Donovan — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 06:15:49 +0000

I'll try to check the book out.

(And, actually, Richard, what's more insulting is your lack of understanding
of someone's self-admitted ignorance on an issue and using a quick Google
search to help it. Why don't you do everyone a favor and help the Wikipedia
article so I don't insult "my audience" again?)

By: Adam Thierer

Adam Thierer — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 04:41:16 +0000

Video of the debate is now online:

http://techliberation.com/2008/11/06/video-of-m...

By: Kevin Donovan

Kevin Donovan — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 04:36:09 +0000

By: Richard Bennett

Richard Bennett — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 04:19:32 +0000

By: Adam Thierer

Adam Thierer — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 03:41:16 +0000

Video of the debate is now online:

http://techliberation.com/2008/11/06/video-of-m...

By: kdonovan11

kdonovan11 — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 03:36:09 +0000

By: Richard Bennett

Richard Bennett — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 03:19:32 +0000

By: kdonovan11

kdonovan11 — Fri, 07 Nov 2008 01:15:49 +0000

By: Richard Bennett

Richard Bennett — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 23:00:35 +0000

Wikipedia is not correct. The OSI protocols were much more rich than the DoD suite. I suggest you read “Patterns in Network Architecture” by John Day if you're interested in this sort of thing. Citing Wikipedia as reference is an insult to your audience, of course.

By: kdonovan11

kdonovan11 — Tue, 04 Nov 2008 04:32:33 +0000

But doesn't that, too, support his thesis?

I'm not familiar with ISO/OSI (way before my time), but a quick Wikipedia reference suggests they are more limited than TCP/IP and the fact that DoD gave away TCP/IP (regardless of motivation) shows that TCP/IP was more free (generative) both technically and legally.

Zittrain says that generativity (openness, less specifically) allowed the net to grow (and face threats).

By: J.H. Snider

J.H. Snider — Mon, 03 Nov 2008 16:46:04 +0000

“One of the all-around nicest guys in the world of tech policy.” Adam, you may be a very skilled writer and policy analyst, but a student of human nature and image management you apparently are not.

By: Richard Bennett

Richard Bennett — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:40:07 +0000

Zittrain's claim that the Internet's competitors were AOL and Compuserve is one of the most ridiculous arguments ever made. AOL and Compuserve never were competitors, they were conduits that brought millions of users to the Internet. The real competitor was the ISO/OSI protocol stack, which lost because the US Department of Defense didn't want the world-wide internet to be based on foreign technology. They killed ISO by giving away the code for TCP/IP.

This struggle also pitted two departments of the US government against each other, as Commerce was a booster of OSI through the NIST.

By: Seth Finkelstein

Seth Finkelstein — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:29:36 +0000

Y'know, there''s really a lot of good critique of Future of the Internet that isn't of the strawman sort of pry-my-iPod-from-my-cold-dead-fingers.

Maybe this is politics, and I just don't understand it. You get what you want, he gets an easy opponent.