Comments on: Sunstein’s “libertarian paternalism” is really just paternalism http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/ Keeping politicians' hands off the Net & everything else related to technology Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:51:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Stupid People, Stupid Lawsuits, Stupid Warning Labels & the Coming Digital Tort Reform Fight http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-69101 Stupid People, Stupid Lawsuits, Stupid Warning Labels & the Coming Digital Tort Reform Fight Tue, 06 Jul 2010 17:58:22 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-69101 <p>[...] driven by the tort system, will only be amplified by federal and state policymakers’ newfound nudgeiness—the desire to get us all to make the “right” decisions through subtle governmental [...]</p> [...] driven by the tort system, will only be amplified by federal and state policymakers’ newfound nudgeiness—the desire to get us all to make the “right” decisions through subtle governmental [...]

]]> By: Would a “Citizenship News Voucher” Get Us More “Broccoli Journalism”? http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-67373 Would a “Citizenship News Voucher” Get Us More “Broccoli Journalism”? Thu, 11 Mar 2010 03:52:09 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-67373 <p>[...] crew thanks to Cass Sunstein’s book of the same name (w/Richard Thaler). But, as I’ve said here before, such “nudging” is rife with elitism since some policymakers imagine they can steer the [...]</p> [...] crew thanks to Cass Sunstein’s book of the same name (w/Richard Thaler). But, as I’ve said here before, such “nudging” is rife with elitism since some policymakers imagine they can steer the [...]

]]> By: Zittrain’s Pessimistic Predictions and Problematic Prescriptions for the Net — Technology Liberation Front http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-62901 Zittrain’s Pessimistic Predictions and Problematic Prescriptions for the Net — Technology Liberation Front Wed, 14 Oct 2009 02:56:08 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-62901 <p>[...] to ensure that their platforms do not discriminate,” possibly through regulation or other Sunstein-ian “nudges.” Here we have the truly frightening prospect of a handful of faceless bureaucrats becoming [...]</p> [...] to ensure that their platforms do not discriminate,” possibly through regulation or other Sunstein-ian “nudges.” Here we have the truly frightening prospect of a handful of faceless bureaucrats becoming [...]

]]> By: waynecrews http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-65305 waynecrews Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:09:58 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-65305 <p>Adam, thanks for this, clicked it while reading your Zittrig post, and you know how i feel about <em>that</em> worldview. In any event, the Senate hold on Sunstein's appointment to head OMB's OIRA has been lifted, so he's likely to be confirmed. Republicans think his favorable attitude toward cost-benefit analysis for regulation is a good thing; But as "nudging" implies, there's little regulators can cook up that they won't regard as net-beneficial, and worthy of imposing on others. The world is there for them to lord over; we are all people things are done to.</p> Adam, thanks for this, clicked it while reading your Zittrig post, and you know how i feel about that worldview. In any event, the Senate hold on Sunstein's appointment to head OMB's OIRA has been lifted, so he's likely to be confirmed. Republicans think his favorable attitude toward cost-benefit analysis for regulation is a good thing; But as “nudging” implies, there's little regulators can cook up that they won't regard as net-beneficial, and worthy of imposing on others. The world is there for them to lord over; we are all people things are done to.

]]> By: waynecrews http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-62079 waynecrews Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:09:58 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-62079 <p>Adam, thanks for this, clicked it while reading your Zittrig post, and you know how i feel about <em>that</em> worldview. In any event, the Senate hold on Sunstein's appointment to head OMB's OIRA has been lifted, so he's likely to be confirmed. Republicans think his favorable attitude toward cost-benefit analysis for regulation is a good thing; But as "nudging" implies, there's little regulators can cook up that they won't regard as net-beneficial, and worthy of imposing on others. The world is there for them to lord over; we are all people things are done to.</p> Adam, thanks for this, clicked it while reading your Zittrig post, and you know how i feel about that worldview. In any event, the Senate hold on Sunstein's appointment to head OMB's OIRA has been lifted, so he's likely to be confirmed. Republicans think his favorable attitude toward cost-benefit analysis for regulation is a good thing; But as “nudging” implies, there's little regulators can cook up that they won't regard as net-beneficial, and worthy of imposing on others. The world is there for them to lord over; we are all people things are done to.

]]> By: waynecrews http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-60077 waynecrews Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:09:58 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-60077 <p>Adam, thanks for this, clicked it while reading your Zittrig post, and you know how i feel about <em>that</em> worldview. In any event, the Senate hold on Sunstein's appointment to head OMB's OIRA has been lifted, so he's likely to be confirmed. Republicans think his favorable attitude toward cost-benefit analysis for regulation is a good thing; But as "nudging" implies, there's little regulators can cook up that they won't regard as net-beneficial, and worthy of imposing on others. The world is there for them to lord over; we are all people things are done to.</p> Adam, thanks for this, clicked it while reading your Zittrig post, and you know how i feel about that worldview. In any event, the Senate hold on Sunstein's appointment to head OMB's OIRA has been lifted, so he's likely to be confirmed. Republicans think his favorable attitude toward cost-benefit analysis for regulation is a good thing; But as “nudging” implies, there's little regulators can cook up that they won't regard as net-beneficial, and worthy of imposing on others. The world is there for them to lord over; we are all people things are done to.

]]> By: Anonymity, Reader Comments & Section 230 | The Technology Liberation Front http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-59025 Anonymity, Reader Comments & Section 230 | The Technology Liberation Front Thu, 09 Apr 2009 14:41:19 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-59025 <p>[...] something must be done to remedy this problem.  Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler, for example, have advocated a Civility Check that “can accurately tell whether the email you’re about to send is [...]</p> [...] something must be done to remedy this problem.  Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler, for example, have advocated a Civility Check that “can accurately tell whether the email you’re about to send is [...]

]]> By: AlexHarris http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-55139 AlexHarris Thu, 10 Apr 2008 23:20:26 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-55139 <p>Sunstein's original article on "libertarian paternalism" (American Economic Review, May 2003) discussed exactly the sort of employer savings plans that libertarians would have no objection to. If I sign a contract with an employer saying that I'll work there, the company will pay me so much, and the company will also put 2% of my pay in a 401(k), that's totally fine. The original article simply pointed out that sometimes defaults are necessary - but it didn't involve state action at all. It's interesting that he apparently now equates such innocuous actions as employer savings with state-mandated civility. One is definitely libertarian. The other is definitely paternalism. I'm not sure if either action fits both categories.</p> Sunstein’s original article on “libertarian paternalism” (American Economic Review, May 2003) discussed exactly the sort of employer savings plans that libertarians would have no objection to. If I sign a contract with an employer saying that I’ll work there, the company will pay me so much, and the company will also put 2% of my pay in a 401(k), that’s totally fine. The original article simply pointed out that sometimes defaults are necessary – but it didn’t involve state action at all. It’s interesting that he apparently now equates such innocuous actions as employer savings with state-mandated civility. One is definitely libertarian. The other is definitely paternalism. I’m not sure if either action fits both categories.

]]> By: Alex Harris http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-41091 Alex Harris Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:20:26 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-41091 <p>Sunstein's original article on "libertarian paternalism" (American Economic Review, May 2003) discussed exactly the sort of employer savings plans that libertarians would have no objection to. If I sign a contract with an employer saying that I'll work there, the company will pay me so much, and the company will also put 2% of my pay in a 401(k), that's totally fine. The original article simply pointed out that sometimes defaults are necessary - but it didn't involve state action at all. It's interesting that he apparently now equates such innocuous actions as employer savings with state-mandated civility. One is definitely libertarian. The other is definitely paternalism. I'm not sure if either action fits both categories.</p> Sunstein’s original article on “libertarian paternalism” (American Economic Review, May 2003) discussed exactly the sort of employer savings plans that libertarians would have no objection to. If I sign a contract with an employer saying that I’ll work there, the company will pay me so much, and the company will also put 2% of my pay in a 401(k), that’s totally fine. The original article simply pointed out that sometimes defaults are necessary – but it didn’t involve state action at all. It’s interesting that he apparently now equates such innocuous actions as employer savings with state-mandated civility. One is definitely libertarian. The other is definitely paternalism. I’m not sure if either action fits both categories.

]]> By: dm http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-55138 dm Thu, 10 Apr 2008 16:23:25 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-55138 <p>It's not possible for "the government to stay out of 401K", since they're creations of the government to begin with. Encouraging employers to make them opt-out, instead of opt-in doesn't really make any difference to anyone's freedom.</p> It’s not possible for “the government to stay out of 401K”, since they’re creations of the government to begin with. Encouraging employers to make them opt-out, instead of opt-in doesn’t really make any difference to anyone’s freedom.

]]> By: dm http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-41080 dm Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:23:25 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-41080 <p>It's not possible for "the government to stay out of 401K", since they're creations of the government to begin with. Encouraging employers to make them opt-out, instead of opt-in doesn't really make any difference to anyone's freedom.</p> It’s not possible for “the government to stay out of 401K”, since they’re creations of the government to begin with. Encouraging employers to make them opt-out, instead of opt-in doesn’t really make any difference to anyone’s freedom.

]]> By: MikeT http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-55137 MikeT Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:18:18 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-55137 <p>The idea is not entirely without merit, provided it is done outside of the state. My employer by default starts all new hires out with a 2% contribution to the conservative investments in its 401K. You can opt-out if you know what you are doing, but this sort of paternalism does help new hires out of college, many of whom are irresponsible with saving for retirement.<br><br>I've been investing since I got out of college, and in 2.5 years, I've saved quite a bit by voluntarily doing between 6-8% of my paycheck, but some of my coworkers think it's stupid. Why? They don't care that I am getting an addition few thousand bucks a year invested for me, all they know is that that additional money out of their paycheck can't go to fun stuff like big TVs and video games.<br><br>The sad truth is that these sort of people will be the ones whining and complaining 20 years from now about how expensive the cost of living is, and how they'll never be able to retire. Now, this'd be no problem in a society in which they can't vote, but since they can vote, it's probably good that our employer is nudging them in a direction that will make them less likely to end up destitute later on in life.<br><br>Be all that as it may be, libertarian paternalism will invariably require even more government, and in that sense, I think it certainly disqualifies the "libertarian" adjective in any meaningful sense of the word.</p> The idea is not entirely without merit, provided it is done outside of the state. My employer by default starts all new hires out with a 2% contribution to the conservative investments in its 401K. You can opt-out if you know what you are doing, but this sort of paternalism does help new hires out of college, many of whom are irresponsible with saving for retirement.

I’ve been investing since I got out of college, and in 2.5 years, I’ve saved quite a bit by voluntarily doing between 6-8% of my paycheck, but some of my coworkers think it’s stupid. Why? They don’t care that I am getting an addition few thousand bucks a year invested for me, all they know is that that additional money out of their paycheck can’t go to fun stuff like big TVs and video games.

The sad truth is that these sort of people will be the ones whining and complaining 20 years from now about how expensive the cost of living is, and how they’ll never be able to retire. Now, this’d be no problem in a society in which they can’t vote, but since they can vote, it’s probably good that our employer is nudging them in a direction that will make them less likely to end up destitute later on in life.

Be all that as it may be, libertarian paternalism will invariably require even more government, and in that sense, I think it certainly disqualifies the “libertarian” adjective in any meaningful sense of the word.

]]> By: MikeT http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-41064 MikeT Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:18:18 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-41064 <p>The idea is not entirely without merit, provided it is done outside of the state. My employer by default starts all new hires out with a 2% contribution to the conservative investments in its 401K. You can opt-out if you know what you are doing, but this sort of paternalism does help new hires out of college, many of whom are irresponsible with saving for retirement.</p> <p>I've been investing since I got out of college, and in 2.5 years, I've saved quite a bit by voluntarily doing between 6-8% of my paycheck, but some of my coworkers think it's stupid. Why? They don't care that I am getting an addition few thousand bucks a year invested for me, all they know is that that additional money out of their paycheck can't go to fun stuff like big TVs and video games.</p> <p>The sad truth is that these sort of people will be the ones whining and complaining 20 years from now about how expensive the cost of living is, and how they'll never be able to retire. Now, this'd be no problem in a society in which they can't vote, but since they can vote, it's probably good that our employer is nudging them in a direction that will make them less likely to end up destitute later on in life.</p> <p>Be all that as it may be, libertarian paternalism will invariably require even more government, and in that sense, I think it certainly disqualifies the "libertarian" adjective in any meaningful sense of the word.</p> The idea is not entirely without merit, provided it is done outside of the state. My employer by default starts all new hires out with a 2% contribution to the conservative investments in its 401K. You can opt-out if you know what you are doing, but this sort of paternalism does help new hires out of college, many of whom are irresponsible with saving for retirement.

I’ve been investing since I got out of college, and in 2.5 years, I’ve saved quite a bit by voluntarily doing between 6-8% of my paycheck, but some of my coworkers think it’s stupid. Why? They don’t care that I am getting an addition few thousand bucks a year invested for me, all they know is that that additional money out of their paycheck can’t go to fun stuff like big TVs and video games.

The sad truth is that these sort of people will be the ones whining and complaining 20 years from now about how expensive the cost of living is, and how they’ll never be able to retire. Now, this’d be no problem in a society in which they can’t vote, but since they can vote, it’s probably good that our employer is nudging them in a direction that will make them less likely to end up destitute later on in life.

Be all that as it may be, libertarian paternalism will invariably require even more government, and in that sense, I think it certainly disqualifies the “libertarian” adjective in any meaningful sense of the word.

]]> By: dm http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-55136 dm Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:56:41 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-55136 <p>"Horribly elitist". What's wrong with this elitism, exactly?<br><br>As to the opt-out retirement thing, it's an excellent idea (and has proven to be successful). It just leaves you free to be stupid (and opt out of retirement savings) instead of leaving you free to be wise (and opt in to retirement savings). If this be paternalism, make the most of it.<br><br>As to the civility check, yes, that does seem a little silly. Except, didn't Eudora have such a thing (I remember hot-pepper icons)? Maybe that was just on incoming mail.</p> “Horribly elitist”. What’s wrong with this elitism, exactly?

As to the opt-out retirement thing, it’s an excellent idea (and has proven to be successful). It just leaves you free to be stupid (and opt out of retirement savings) instead of leaving you free to be wise (and opt in to retirement savings). If this be paternalism, make the most of it.

As to the civility check, yes, that does seem a little silly. Except, didn’t Eudora have such a thing (I remember hot-pepper icons)? Maybe that was just on incoming mail.

]]> By: dm http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-41039 dm Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:56:41 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-41039 <p>"Horribly elitist". What's wrong with this elitism, exactly?</p> <p>As to the opt-out retirement thing, it's an excellent idea (and has proven to be successful). It just leaves you free to be stupid (and opt out of retirement savings) instead of leaving you free to be wise (and opt in to retirement savings). If this be paternalism, make the most of it.</p> <p>As to the civility check, yes, that does seem a little silly. Except, didn't Eudora have such a thing (I remember hot-pepper icons)? Maybe that was just on incoming mail.</p> “Horribly elitist”. What’s wrong with this elitism, exactly?

As to the opt-out retirement thing, it’s an excellent idea (and has proven to be successful). It just leaves you free to be stupid (and opt out of retirement savings) instead of leaving you free to be wise (and opt in to retirement savings). If this be paternalism, make the most of it.

As to the civility check, yes, that does seem a little silly. Except, didn’t Eudora have such a thing (I remember hot-pepper icons)? Maybe that was just on incoming mail.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-55135 Seth Finkelstein Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:16:24 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-55135 <p>Oh, that's hilarious ("Civility Check"). Hey, why not have someone implement it, and let The Free Market decide, huh, huh, huh? If I want to buy Civility Check software, who are you, Mr. Libertarian, to tell me I shouldn't be able to do that? You've violating my rights! :-)<br><br>Hmm ... "And thankfully I don’t have a civility check system running on my machine right now so I can immediately post that thought!" ... self-proving? self-refuting? :-) :-)</p> Oh, that’s hilarious (“Civility Check”). Hey, why not have someone implement it, and let The Free Market decide, huh, huh, huh? If I want to buy Civility Check software, who are you, Mr. Libertarian, to tell me I shouldn’t be able to do that? You’ve violating my rights! :-)

Hmm … “And thankfully I don’t have a civility check system running on my machine right now so I can immediately post that thought!” … self-proving? self-refuting? :-) :-)

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://techliberation.com/2008/04/07/sunsteins-libertarian-paternalism-is-really-just-paternalism/comment-page-1/#comment-41035 Seth Finkelstein Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:16:24 +0000 http://techliberation.com/?p=10627#comment-41035 <p>Oh, that's hilarious ("Civility Check"). Hey, why not have someone implement it, and let The Free Market decide, huh, huh, huh? If I want to buy Civility Check software, who are you, Mr. Libertarian, to tell me I shouldn't be able to do that? You've violating my rights! :-)</p> <p>Hmm ... "And thankfully I don’t have a civility check system running on my machine right now so I can immediately post that thought!" ... self-proving? self-refuting? :-) :-)</p> Oh, that’s hilarious (“Civility Check”). Hey, why not have someone implement it, and let The Free Market decide, huh, huh, huh? If I want to buy Civility Check software, who are you, Mr. Libertarian, to tell me I shouldn’t be able to do that? You’ve violating my rights! :-)

Hmm … “And thankfully I don’t have a civility check system running on my machine right now so I can immediately post that thought!” … self-proving? self-refuting? :-) :-)

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