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	<title>Comments on: Civil Liberties: Surprisingly Strong?</title>
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	<description>Keeping politicians&#039; hands off the Net &#38; everything else related to technology</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin Carson</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-49031</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Carson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 06:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-49031</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It doesn&#039;t really matter all that much how little the government has seen fit--so far--to infringe our liberties.  What matters is that it has gone a long way toward laying the technological, legal, and administrative groundwork for a total police/surveillance state.  When the infrastructure of a police state exists, and can be put into operation by a simple stroke of the Presidential pen, then it&#039;s fair to say that our liberties are no longer rights; we hold them as a sovereign concession of grace from the government, which can revoke them at any time it sees fit.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Let&#039;s see:  the erosion of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment standards of due process by no-knock raids, civil forfeiture, and other aspects of the drug war; the militarization of local police by SWAT teams; the legal and administrative framework for martial law from Garden Plot on; the dumbed-down pro-police, pro-prosecutor popular culture inculated by dreck like &quot;Cops&quot; and &quot;Nancy Grace&quot;; the fiat power to seize assets of &quot;terrorists&quot; without due process, under Clinton and Bush era &quot;counter-terror&quot; legislation; the erosion of posse comitatus; the Padilla precedent for ad hoc suspension of habeas corpus; &quot;know your customer&quot; laws, ubiquitous tracking of economic activity by credit reporters, the willingness of AT&amp;T; and other &quot;private&quot; actors to roll over and cooperate with the national security state; public surveillance cameras mated to face recognition technology and digital databases....&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Imagine if this groundwork had already been laid when Mitchell Palmer ordered the mass arrest of Wobblies, or when Germany passed the Nuremberg laws.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t really matter all that much how little the government has seen fit&#8211;so far&#8211;to infringe our liberties.  What matters is that it has gone a long way toward laying the technological, legal, and administrative groundwork for a total police/surveillance state.  When the infrastructure of a police state exists, and can be put into operation by a simple stroke of the Presidential pen, then it&#8217;s fair to say that our liberties are no longer rights; we hold them as a sovereign concession of grace from the government, which can revoke them at any time it sees fit.<br /><br />Let&#8217;s see:  the erosion of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment standards of due process by no-knock raids, civil forfeiture, and other aspects of the drug war; the militarization of local police by SWAT teams; the legal and administrative framework for martial law from Garden Plot on; the dumbed-down pro-police, pro-prosecutor popular culture inculated by dreck like &#8220;Cops&#8221; and &#8220;Nancy Grace&#8221;; the fiat power to seize assets of &#8220;terrorists&#8221; without due process, under Clinton and Bush era &#8220;counter-terror&#8221; legislation; the erosion of posse comitatus; the Padilla precedent for ad hoc suspension of habeas corpus; &#8220;know your customer&#8221; laws, ubiquitous tracking of economic activity by credit reporters, the willingness of AT&#038;T; and other &#8220;private&#8221; actors to roll over and cooperate with the national security state; public surveillance cameras mated to face recognition technology and digital databases&#8230;.<br /><br />Imagine if this groundwork had already been laid when Mitchell Palmer ordered the mass arrest of Wobblies, or when Germany passed the Nuremberg laws.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin Carson</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-39145</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Carson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 05:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-39145</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It doesn&#039;t really matter all that much how little the government has seen fit--so far--to infringe our liberties.  What matters is that it has gone a long way toward laying the technological, legal, and administrative groundwork for a total police/surveillance state.  When the infrastructure of a police state exists, and can be put into operation by a simple stroke of the Presidential pen, then it&#039;s fair to say that our liberties are no longer rights; we hold them as a sovereign concession of grace from the government, which can revoke them at any time it sees fit.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Let&#039;s see:  the erosion of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment standards of due process by no-knock raids, civil forfeiture, and other aspects of the drug war; the militarization of local police by SWAT teams; the legal and administrative framework for martial law from Garden Plot on; the dumbed-down pro-police, pro-prosecutor popular culture inculated by dreck like &quot;Cops&quot; and &quot;Nancy Grace&quot;; the fiat power to seize assets of &quot;terrorists&quot; without due process, under Clinton and Bush era &quot;counter-terror&quot; legislation; the erosion of posse comitatus; the Padilla precedent for ad hoc suspension of habeas corpus; &quot;know your customer&quot; laws, ubiquitous tracking of economic activity by credit reporters, the willingness of AT&amp;T and other &quot;private&quot; actors to roll over and cooperate with the national security state; public surveillance cameras mated to face recognition technology and digital databases....&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Imagine if this groundwork had already been laid when Mitchell Palmer ordered the mass arrest of Wobblies, or when Germany passed the Nuremberg laws.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It doesn&#8217;t really matter all that much how little the government has seen fit&#8211;so far&#8211;to infringe our liberties.  What matters is that it has gone a long way toward laying the technological, legal, and administrative groundwork for a total police/surveillance state.  When the infrastructure of a police state exists, and can be put into operation by a simple stroke of the Presidential pen, then it&#8217;s fair to say that our liberties are no longer rights; we hold them as a sovereign concession of grace from the government, which can revoke them at any time it sees fit.</p>

<p>Let&#8217;s see:  the erosion of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendment standards of due process by no-knock raids, civil forfeiture, and other aspects of the drug war; the militarization of local police by SWAT teams; the legal and administrative framework for martial law from Garden Plot on; the dumbed-down pro-police, pro-prosecutor popular culture inculated by dreck like &#8220;Cops&#8221; and &#8220;Nancy Grace&#8221;; the fiat power to seize assets of &#8220;terrorists&#8221; without due process, under Clinton and Bush era &#8220;counter-terror&#8221; legislation; the erosion of posse comitatus; the Padilla precedent for ad hoc suspension of habeas corpus; &#8220;know your customer&#8221; laws, ubiquitous tracking of economic activity by credit reporters, the willingness of AT&amp;T and other &#8220;private&#8221; actors to roll over and cooperate with the national security state; public surveillance cameras mated to face recognition technology and digital databases&#8230;.</p>

<p>Imagine if this groundwork had already been laid when Mitchell Palmer ordered the mass arrest of Wobblies, or when Germany passed the Nuremberg laws.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: eee_eff</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-49030</link>
		<dc:creator>eee_eff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 04:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-49030</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Noam Chomsky made a similar observation, although he was looking at a much shorter time scale.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;He noted how much more robust the anti-war sentiment is today than it was at a similar stage of the Vietnam war.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;By contrast, serious U.S. protests took years to develop against the Vietnam War, launched in 1962 and brutal and barbaric from the start.  The world has changed since then--as almost always, not because of gifts from benevolent rulers, but through deeply committed popular struggle, far too late in developing, but ultimately effective.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&quot;The Imperial Presidency and its Consequences&quot;&lt;br&gt;December 22, 2004&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noam Chomsky made a similar observation, although he was looking at a much shorter time scale.<br /><br />He noted how much more robust the anti-war sentiment is today than it was at a similar stage of the Vietnam war.<br /><br />&#8220;By contrast, serious U.S. protests took years to develop against the Vietnam War, launched in 1962 and brutal and barbaric from the start.  The world has changed since then&#8211;as almost always, not because of gifts from benevolent rulers, but through deeply committed popular struggle, far too late in developing, but ultimately effective.&#8221;<br /><br />&#8220;The Imperial Presidency and its Consequences&#8221;<br />December 22, 2004</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: eee_eff</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-49029</link>
		<dc:creator>eee_eff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-49029</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;MikeT:&lt;br&gt;You had said above:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;i&gt;How much easier it would be to declare all non-diplomatic Saudi Arabians personae non grate and deport them! I submit that discriminating against Saudia Arabia, based on its disproportionate representation in global terrorism, would do more to lessen the threat of terrorism, than all police powers gained or usurped since 9-11 combined.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;This is wrong on several levels.  I&#039;ll just discuss two.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;First, the terrorist organizations are feed by a fundamental belief: that USA is out to destroy Islam, and therefore extreme actions against are justified.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What you are propose to do feeds that fundamental belief, and would reinforce and strengthen the recruiting of those terrorist networks.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Second, a fundamental strength of the USA, and the reason for any remaining moral connectivity it has in today&#039;s world, is it&#039;s adherence to a set of ideals.  Your proposal to throw those ideals away would decrease our connectivity.  (See Col. John Boyd here)&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MikeT:<br />You had said above:<br /><br /><i>How much easier it would be to declare all non-diplomatic Saudi Arabians personae non grate and deport them! I submit that discriminating against Saudia Arabia, based on its disproportionate representation in global terrorism, would do more to lessen the threat of terrorism, than all police powers gained or usurped since 9-11 combined.</i><br /><br />This is wrong on several levels.  I&#8217;ll just discuss two.<br /><br />First, the terrorist organizations are feed by a fundamental belief: that USA is out to destroy Islam, and therefore extreme actions against are justified.<br /><br />What you are propose to do feeds that fundamental belief, and would reinforce and strengthen the recruiting of those terrorist networks.<br /><br />Second, a fundamental strength of the USA, and the reason for any remaining moral connectivity it has in today&#8217;s world, is it&#8217;s adherence to a set of ideals.  Your proposal to throw those ideals away would decrease our connectivity.  (See Col. John Boyd here)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: enigma_foundry</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-39144</link>
		<dc:creator>enigma_foundry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-39144</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Noam Chomsky made a similar observation, although he was looking at a much shorter time scale.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;He noted how much more robust the anti-war sentiment is today than it was at a similar stage of the Vietnam war.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;By contrast, serious U.S. protests took years to develop against the Vietnam War, launched in 1962 and brutal and barbaric from the start.  The world has changed since then--as almost always, not because of gifts from benevolent rulers, but through deeply committed popular struggle, far too late in developing, but ultimately effective.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&quot;The Imperial Presidency and its Consequences&quot;
December 22, 2004&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noam Chomsky made a similar observation, although he was looking at a much shorter time scale.</p>

<p>He noted how much more robust the anti-war sentiment is today than it was at a similar stage of the Vietnam war.</p>

<p>&#8220;By contrast, serious U.S. protests took years to develop against the Vietnam War, launched in 1962 and brutal and barbaric from the start.  The world has changed since then&#8211;as almost always, not because of gifts from benevolent rulers, but through deeply committed popular struggle, far too late in developing, but ultimately effective.&#8221;</p>

<p>&#8220;The Imperial Presidency and its Consequences&#8221;
December 22, 2004</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: enigma_foundry</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-39143</link>
		<dc:creator>enigma_foundry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Aug 2007 02:54:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-39143</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;MikeT:
You had said above:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;i&gt;How much easier it would be to declare all non-diplomatic Saudi Arabians personae non grate and deport them! I submit that discriminating against Saudia Arabia, based on its disproportionate representation in global terrorism, would do more to lessen the threat of terrorism, than all police powers gained or usurped since 9-11 combined.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This is wrong on several levels.  I&#039;ll just discuss two.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;First, the terrorist organizations are feed by a fundamental belief: that USA is out to destroy Islam, and therefore extreme actions against are justified.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;What you are propose to do feeds that fundamental belief, and would reinforce and strengthen the recruiting of those terrorist networks.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Second, a fundamental strength of the USA, and the reason for any remaining moral connectivity it has in today&#039;s world, is it&#039;s adherence to a set of ideals.  Your proposal to throw those ideals away would decrease our connectivity.  (See Col. John Boyd here)&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MikeT:
You had said above:</p>

<p><i>How much easier it would be to declare all non-diplomatic Saudi Arabians personae non grate and deport them! I submit that discriminating against Saudia Arabia, based on its disproportionate representation in global terrorism, would do more to lessen the threat of terrorism, than all police powers gained or usurped since 9-11 combined.</i></p>

<p>This is wrong on several levels.  I&#8217;ll just discuss two.</p>

<p>First, the terrorist organizations are feed by a fundamental belief: that USA is out to destroy Islam, and therefore extreme actions against are justified.</p>

<p>What you are propose to do feeds that fundamental belief, and would reinforce and strengthen the recruiting of those terrorist networks.</p>

<p>Second, a fundamental strength of the USA, and the reason for any remaining moral connectivity it has in today&#8217;s world, is it&#8217;s adherence to a set of ideals.  Your proposal to throw those ideals away would decrease our connectivity.  (See Col. John Boyd here)</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tim Lee</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-49028</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-49028</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Mike, how many Saudis has the United States allowed to immigrate here since 9/11?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, how many Saudis has the United States allowed to immigrate here since 9/11?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: MikeT</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-49027</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 19:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-49027</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;What is different about a lot of this legislation is that it is a power grab aimed squarely at obtaining new, &lt;strong&gt;general police powers&lt;/strong&gt; for the government. The power grabs cited from previous conflicts were at least arguably necessary for that war, whereas these are general takings that have no limit. You might even be able to argue in favor of the suspension of the writ of habeus corpus under Lincoln, as there would be an end to that war in sight, and it was a legal power then. However, the current &quot;War on Terror&quot; is neither a bonafide invasion, nor an insurrection, therefore the detention of Jose Padilla without trial was, in effect, a criminal act by the Bush Administration, not a legitimate use of a war power.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Granted, a lot of these things are &quot;necessary&quot; because a lot of Americans don&#039;t want to have to admit that it&#039;d be easier to just declare all immigration from countries like Saudi Arabia to be over. Most of the people killing our troops in Iraq are Saudis; same thing with the 9-11 hijackers. How much easier it would be to declare all non-diplomatic Saudi Arabians personae non grate and deport them! I submit that discriminating against Saudia Arabia, based on its disproportionate representation in global terrorism, would do more to lessen the threat of terrorism, than all police powers gained or usurped since 9-11 combined.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is different about a lot of this legislation is that it is a power grab aimed squarely at obtaining new, <strong>general police powers</strong> for the government. The power grabs cited from previous conflicts were at least arguably necessary for that war, whereas these are general takings that have no limit. You might even be able to argue in favor of the suspension of the writ of habeus corpus under Lincoln, as there would be an end to that war in sight, and it was a legal power then. However, the current &#8220;War on Terror&#8221; is neither a bonafide invasion, nor an insurrection, therefore the detention of Jose Padilla without trial was, in effect, a criminal act by the Bush Administration, not a legitimate use of a war power.</p>

<p><br /></p>

<p>Granted, a lot of these things are &#8220;necessary&#8221; because a lot of Americans don&#8217;t want to have to admit that it&#8217;d be easier to just declare all immigration from countries like Saudi Arabia to be over. Most of the people killing our troops in Iraq are Saudis; same thing with the 9-11 hijackers. How much easier it would be to declare all non-diplomatic Saudi Arabians personae non grate and deport them! I submit that discriminating against Saudia Arabia, based on its disproportionate representation in global terrorism, would do more to lessen the threat of terrorism, than all police powers gained or usurped since 9-11 combined.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Lee</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-39142</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-39142</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Mike, how many Saudis has the United States allowed to immigrate here since 9/11?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, how many Saudis has the United States allowed to immigrate here since 9/11?</p>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: MikeT</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/comment-page-1/#comment-39141</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Aug 2007 18:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2007/08/20/civil-liberties-surprisingly-strong/#comment-39141</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;What is different about a lot of this legislation is that it is a power grab aimed squarely at obtaining new, &lt;strong&gt;general police powers&lt;/strong&gt; for the government. The power grabs cited from previous conflicts were at least arguably necessary for that war, whereas these are general takings that have no limit. You might even be able to argue in favor of the suspension of the writ of habeus corpus under Lincoln, as there would be an end to that war in sight, and it was a legal power then. However, the current &quot;War on Terror&quot; is neither a bonafide invasion, nor an insurrection, therefore the detention of Jose Padilla without trial was, in effect, a criminal act by the Bush Administration, not a legitimate use of a war power.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Granted, a lot of these things are &quot;necessary&quot; because a lot of Americans don&#039;t want to have to admit that it&#039;d be easier to just declare all immigration from countries like Saudi Arabia to be over. Most of the people killing our troops in Iraq are Saudis; same thing with the 9-11 hijackers. How much easier it would be to declare all non-diplomatic Saudi Arabians personae non grate and deport them! I submit that discriminating against Saudia Arabia, based on its disproportionate representation in global terrorism, would do more to lessen the threat of terrorism, than all police powers gained or usurped since 9-11 combined.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is different about a lot of this legislation is that it is a power grab aimed squarely at obtaining new, <strong>general police powers</strong> for the government. The power grabs cited from previous conflicts were at least arguably necessary for that war, whereas these are general takings that have no limit. You might even be able to argue in favor of the suspension of the writ of habeus corpus under Lincoln, as there would be an end to that war in sight, and it was a legal power then. However, the current &#8220;War on Terror&#8221; is neither a bonafide invasion, nor an insurrection, therefore the detention of Jose Padilla without trial was, in effect, a criminal act by the Bush Administration, not a legitimate use of a war power.</p>

<p>Granted, a lot of these things are &#8220;necessary&#8221; because a lot of Americans don&#8217;t want to have to admit that it&#8217;d be easier to just declare all immigration from countries like Saudi Arabia to be over. Most of the people killing our troops in Iraq are Saudis; same thing with the 9-11 hijackers. How much easier it would be to declare all non-diplomatic Saudi Arabians personae non grate and deport them! I submit that discriminating against Saudia Arabia, based on its disproportionate representation in global terrorism, would do more to lessen the threat of terrorism, than all police powers gained or usurped since 9-11 combined.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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