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	<title>Comments on: Authorization = Identification or Alternatives + Authentication</title>
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	<description>Keeping politicians&#039; hands off the Net &#38; everything else related to technology</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Antibush</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34145</link>
		<dc:creator>Antibush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34145</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bush is forever saying that democracies do not invade other countries and start wars. Well, he did just that.  He invaded Iraq, started a war, and killed people.  What do you think? Why has bush turned our country from a country of hope and prosperity to a country of belligerence and fear.
Are we safer today than we were before?
We have lost friends and influenced no one.  No wonder most of the world thinks we suck.  Thanks to what george bush has done to our country during the past three years,  we do!&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bush is forever saying that democracies do not invade other countries and start wars. Well, he did just that.  He invaded Iraq, started a war, and killed people.  What do you think? Why has bush turned our country from a country of hope and prosperity to a country of belligerence and fear.
Are we safer today than we were before?
We have lost friends and influenced no one.  No wonder most of the world thinks we suck.  Thanks to what george bush has done to our country during the past three years,  we do!</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Antibush</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45822</link>
		<dc:creator>Antibush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45822</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Bush is forever saying that democracies do not invade other countries and start wars. Well, he did just that.  He invaded Iraq, started a war, and killed people.  What do you think? Why has bush turned our country from a country of hope and prosperity to a country of belligerence and fear.&lt;br&gt;Are we safer today than we were before?&lt;br&gt;We have lost friends and influenced no one.  No wonder most of the world thinks we suck.  Thanks to what george bush has done to our country during the past three years,  we do!&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bush is forever saying that democracies do not invade other countries and start wars. Well, he did just that.  He invaded Iraq, started a war, and killed people.  What do you think? Why has bush turned our country from a country of hope and prosperity to a country of belligerence and fear.<br />Are we safer today than we were before?<br />We have lost friends and influenced no one.  No wonder most of the world thinks we suck.  Thanks to what george bush has done to our country during the past three years,  we do!</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tramadol</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34144</link>
		<dc:creator>tramadol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jan 2007 02:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34144</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;81e31de21f46 Nice site    &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc-acupuncture.com/baxqorav&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tramadol&lt;/a&gt; tramadol&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tramadol</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45821</link>
		<dc:creator>tramadol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jan 2007 02:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45821</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;81e31de21f46 Nice site    &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc-acupuncture.com/baxqorav&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tramadol&lt;/a&gt; tramadol&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>81e31de21f46 Nice site    <a href="http://www.abc-acupuncture.com/baxqorav" rel="nofollow">tramadol</a> tramadol</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tramadol</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34143</link>
		<dc:creator>tramadol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34143</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;81e31de21f46 Very good    &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc-acupuncture.com/baxqorav&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tramadol&lt;/a&gt; tramadol&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>81e31de21f46 Very good    <a href="http://www.abc-acupuncture.com/baxqorav" rel="nofollow">tramadol</a> tramadol</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: tramadol</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45820</link>
		<dc:creator>tramadol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Jan 2007 22:26:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45820</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;81e31de21f46 Very good    &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.abc-acupuncture.com/baxqorav&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tramadol&lt;/a&gt; tramadol&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>81e31de21f46 Very good    <a href="http://www.abc-acupuncture.com/baxqorav" rel="nofollow">tramadol</a> tramadol</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: short url</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34142</link>
		<dc:creator>short url</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34142</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;433b6ee5e1bc Good work    &lt;a href=&quot;http:/0zu.tw/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;short url&lt;/a&gt; short url&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>433b6ee5e1bc Good work    <a href="http:/0zu.tw/" rel="nofollow">short url</a> short url</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: short url</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45819</link>
		<dc:creator>short url</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45819</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;433b6ee5e1bc Good work    &lt;a href=&quot;http:/0zu.tw/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;short url&lt;/a&gt; short url&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>433b6ee5e1bc Good work    <a href="http:/0zu.tw/" rel="nofollow">short url</a> short url</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Lee</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45818</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 04:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45818</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I also think we&#039;re in agreement about how the processes work. My girlfriend finds your terminology more intuitive than I do, so maybe I&#039;ve just been warped by being used to the terms of art used in CS.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think we&#8217;re in agreement about how the processes work. My girlfriend finds your terminology more intuitive than I do, so maybe I&#8217;ve just been warped by being used to the terms of art used in CS.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Lee</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34141</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34141</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I also think we&#039;re in agreement about how the processes work. My girlfriend finds your terminology more intuitive than I do, so maybe I&#039;ve just been warped by being used to the terms of art used in CS.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also think we&#8217;re in agreement about how the processes work. My girlfriend finds your terminology more intuitive than I do, so maybe I&#8217;ve just been warped by being used to the terms of art used in CS.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cog</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45817</link>
		<dc:creator>Cog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45817</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The identity &lt;a href=&quot;mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com&quot;&gt;foobar123@hotmail.com&lt;/a&gt; persists between transactions, so I don&#039;t think I&#039;m talking about the value of a transaction.  Clearly the value of an identity can be characterized as some formula over the value of all transactions that identity will ever engage in.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Are we to understand that you make a distinction between an &quot;identity&quot; and an &quot;identifier&quot;?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The identity <a href="mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com">foobar123@hotmail.com</a> persists between transactions, so I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m talking about the value of a transaction.  Clearly the value of an identity can be characterized as some formula over the value of all transactions that identity will ever engage in.<br /><br />Are we to understand that you make a distinction between an &#8220;identity&#8221; and an &#8220;identifier&#8221;?</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cog</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34140</link>
		<dc:creator>Cog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jul 2006 15:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34140</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The identity foobar123@hotmail.com persists between transactions, so I don&#039;t think I&#039;m talking about the value of a transaction.  Clearly the value of an identity can be characterized as some formula over the value of all transactions that identity will ever engage in.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Are we to understand that you make a distinction between an &quot;identity&quot; and an &quot;identifier&quot;?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The identity <a href="mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com">foobar123@hotmail.com</a> persists between transactions, so I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m talking about the value of a transaction.  Clearly the value of an identity can be characterized as some formula over the value of all transactions that identity will ever engage in.</p>

<p>Are we to understand that you make a distinction between an &#8220;identity&#8221; and an &#8220;identifier&#8221;?</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Harper</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45816</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 15:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45816</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks, Cog.  Since both you and Tim mentioned it, I guess I should emphasize that my book is not about computer security or written with a CS audience particularly in mind.  It is about human identification, and it is for everyone - perhaps especially for technical laypeople.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Therefore, though I looked carefully at the use of terms in CS and even consulted with a friend who is a CS professor, I chose the terms that work the best, and are most consistent with their meanings, in plain English.  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;You appear to be using the term &quot;identity&quot; where I would use &quot;identifier.&quot;  And what you are calling the &quot;value&quot; of an *identity*, I would discuss as the value of a *transaction*.  A low-value transaction like access to a Hotmail account requires username and passcode, two low-quality identifiers.  A high-value transaction like a creation of a deed of trust will require high-quality identifiers like a signature or in-person appearance (each a use of biometrics). &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;In Chapter 7, I discuss the three variables that affect identifier quality: fixity, distinctiveness, and permanence. Chapter 8 is about the role of risk management in choosing identifiers and Chapter 9 deals with advanced identification techniques that help balance the need for speed against the need for accuracy in confirming identity.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I think we&#039;re in general agreement on how the processes work, but we probably have much more to hash out on how to talk about it.  It&#039;s important because jargon that obscures these things from the general public will suppress the adoption of new ways of doing identification and credentialing.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Cog.  Since both you and Tim mentioned it, I guess I should emphasize that my book is not about computer security or written with a CS audience particularly in mind.  It is about human identification, and it is for everyone &#8211; perhaps especially for technical laypeople.</p>

<p>Therefore, though I looked carefully at the use of terms in CS and even consulted with a friend who is a CS professor, I chose the terms that work the best, and are most consistent with their meanings, in plain English.  </p>

<p>You appear to be using the term &#8220;identity&#8221; where I would use &#8220;identifier.&#8221;  And what you are calling the &#8220;value&#8221; of an *identity*, I would discuss as the value of a *transaction*.  A low-value transaction like access to a Hotmail account requires username and passcode, two low-quality identifiers.  A high-value transaction like a creation of a deed of trust will require high-quality identifiers like a signature or in-person appearance (each a use of biometrics). </p>

<p>In Chapter 7, I discuss the three variables that affect identifier quality: fixity, distinctiveness, and permanence. Chapter 8 is about the role of risk management in choosing identifiers and Chapter 9 deals with advanced identification techniques that help balance the need for speed against the need for accuracy in confirming identity.</p>

<p>I think we&#8217;re in general agreement on how the processes work, but we probably have much more to hash out on how to talk about it.  It&#8217;s important because jargon that obscures these things from the general public will suppress the adoption of new ways of doing identification and credentialing.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim Harper</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34139</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 14:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34139</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks, Cog.  Since both you and Tim mentioned it, I guess I should emphasize that my book is not about computer security or written with a CS audience particularly in mind.  It is about human identification, and it is for everyone - perhaps especially for technical laypeople.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Therefore, though I looked carefully at the use of terms in CS and even consulted with a friend who is a CS professor, I chose the terms that work the best, and are most consistent with their meanings, in plain English.  &lt;p&gt;You appear to be using the term &quot;identity&quot; where I would use &quot;identifier.&quot;  And what you are calling the &quot;value&quot; of an *identity*, I would discuss as the value of a *transaction*.  A low-value transaction like access to a Hotmail account requires username and passcode, two low-quality identifiers.  A high-value transaction like a creation of a deed of trust will require high-quality identifiers like a signature or in-person appearance (each a use of biometrics). &lt;p&gt;In Chapter 7, I discuss the three variables that affect identifier quality: fixity, distinctiveness, and permanence. Chapter 8 is about the role of risk management in choosing identifiers and Chapter 9 deals with advanced identification techniques that help balance the need for speed against the need for accuracy in confirming identity.&lt;p&gt;I think we&#039;re in general agreement on how the processes work, but we probably have much more to hash out on how to talk about it.  It&#039;s important because jargon that obscures these things from the general public will suppress the adoption of new ways of doing identification and credentialing.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Cog.  Since both you and Tim mentioned it, I guess I should emphasize that my book is not about computer security or written with a CS audience particularly in mind.  It is about human identification, and it is for everyone &#8211; perhaps especially for technical laypeople.</p>

<p>Therefore, though I looked carefully at the use of terms in CS and even consulted with a friend who is a CS professor, I chose the terms that work the best, and are most consistent with their meanings, in plain English.  </p><p>You appear to be using the term &#8220;identity&#8221; where I would use &#8220;identifier.&#8221;  And what you are calling the &#8220;value&#8221; of an *identity*, I would discuss as the value of a *transaction*.  A low-value transaction like access to a Hotmail account requires username and passcode, two low-quality identifiers.  A high-value transaction like a creation of a deed of trust will require high-quality identifiers like a signature or in-person appearance (each a use of biometrics). </p><p>In Chapter 7, I discuss the three variables that affect identifier quality: fixity, distinctiveness, and permanence. Chapter 8 is about the role of risk management in choosing identifiers and Chapter 9 deals with advanced identification techniques that help balance the need for speed against the need for accuracy in confirming identity.</p><p>I think we&#8217;re in general agreement on how the processes work, but we probably have much more to hash out on how to talk about it.  It&#8217;s important because jargon that obscures these things from the general public will suppress the adoption of new ways of doing identification and credentialing.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cog</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45815</link>
		<dc:creator>Cog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 14:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45815</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, it&#039;s kind of early over here on the West Coast, so I&#039;m less than fully coherent.  Corrections...&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Re: my first paragraph above: I phrased this in an odd way.  I was trying to make two points.  First, your definition of identification seems to focus on the matching between a token and its associated state and privileges.  To me that just sounds like authorization.  There&#039;s always an authentication step, even if that step&#039;s as simple as recognizing your sister&#039;s face.  Second, your criteria for calling something an &quot;identity&quot; seems to be based on how valuable that thing is.  But there&#039;s always an identity involved whenever two interactions need to be linked.  The distinction between identities and non-identities is unclear.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The rest of my comment was an elaboration on these two ideas.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Re: my third paragraph above: legal punishments are not better authentication mechanisms, but they are ways that we dissuade spoofing of the authentication mechanisms that exist.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it&#8217;s kind of early over here on the West Coast, so I&#8217;m less than fully coherent.  Corrections&#8230;<br /><br />Re: my first paragraph above: I phrased this in an odd way.  I was trying to make two points.  First, your definition of identification seems to focus on the matching between a token and its associated state and privileges.  To me that just sounds like authorization.  There&#8217;s always an authentication step, even if that step&#8217;s as simple as recognizing your sister&#8217;s face.  Second, your criteria for calling something an &#8220;identity&#8221; seems to be based on how valuable that thing is.  But there&#8217;s always an identity involved whenever two interactions need to be linked.  The distinction between identities and non-identities is unclear.<br /><br />The rest of my comment was an elaboration on these two ideas.<br /><br />Re: my third paragraph above: legal punishments are not better authentication mechanisms, but they are ways that we dissuade spoofing of the authentication mechanisms that exist.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cog</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-45814</link>
		<dc:creator>Cog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 14:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-45814</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You seem to be confusing the issue of authorization (i.e., matching an identity to its privileges) with the issue of an identity&#039;s value.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The Hotmail user &lt;a href=&quot;mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com&quot;&gt;foobar123@hotmail.com&lt;/a&gt; is a low-value identity, and accordingly one uses low-strength mechanisms (username and password) to authenticate that identity.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The &quot;Jim Harper&quot; account-holder at Bank X is a high-value identity, and accordingly one presumably uses high-strength mechanisms (principally, the various punishments available within the legal system) to authenticate that identity.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;There is no hard distinction between &lt;a href=&quot;mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com&quot;&gt;foobar123@hotmail.com&lt;/a&gt; and &quot;Jim Harper&quot; at Bank X.  Both identities persist between interaction sessions and have associated privileges.  It is not the case that one is an &quot;identity&quot; and the other is not.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Also, ATM withdrawals and airplane flights do require identification, although not in precisely the way Tim means.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;First, both writing a check and making an ATM withdrawal hinge on a spoofable authentication process, so I don&#039;t see the distinction you&#039;re trying to draw here.  Presumably there are even circumstances (you break your hand and your wife takes care of writing the checks this month) when you would want the check-writing process to be spoofed.  The reason ATMs use different authentication mechanisms than checks is simply a matter of engineering the right cost/benefit tradeoff for preventing these two kinds of crime.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Second, the process of riding on an airline flight does require identity, although not the high-value flesh-and-blood human identity that you&#039;re talking about.  When I reserve a ticket online, pick up the boarding pass at an e-ticket machine, and present that pass to board my flight, the airline necessarily cares a great deal that the person or persons who do these three things are connected somehow.  If someone else spoofs the process and picks up my ticket, then the airline will have an unhappy customer on their hands.  The relevant identity here is &quot;Passenger 123&quot;, which may represent one person or a group of people (maybe someone else makes my reservation for me and fetches my boarding pass), but it is nonetheless an identity that persists between interactions and possesses privileges.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Where you&#039;re getting tripped up is the fact that the airlines insist that you surrender a much longer-lived and higher-value identity, not just &quot;Passenger 123&quot;, for no good reason.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Incidentally, a better discussion of the relationship between identity, authentication, and access control is found at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_control&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia article on access control&lt;/a&gt;.  To be blunt, you seem to be making up new definitions for words that have relatively standard meanings in computer security.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to be confusing the issue of authorization (i.e., matching an identity to its privileges) with the issue of an identity&#8217;s value.<br /><br />The Hotmail user <a href="mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com">foobar123@hotmail.com</a> is a low-value identity, and accordingly one uses low-strength mechanisms (username and password) to authenticate that identity.<br /><br />The &#8220;Jim Harper&#8221; account-holder at Bank X is a high-value identity, and accordingly one presumably uses high-strength mechanisms (principally, the various punishments available within the legal system) to authenticate that identity.<br /><br />There is no hard distinction between <a href="mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com">foobar123@hotmail.com</a> and &#8220;Jim Harper&#8221; at Bank X.  Both identities persist between interaction sessions and have associated privileges.  It is not the case that one is an &#8220;identity&#8221; and the other is not.<br /><br />Also, ATM withdrawals and airplane flights do require identification, although not in precisely the way Tim means.<br /><br />First, both writing a check and making an ATM withdrawal hinge on a spoofable authentication process, so I don&#8217;t see the distinction you&#8217;re trying to draw here.  Presumably there are even circumstances (you break your hand and your wife takes care of writing the checks this month) when you would want the check-writing process to be spoofed.  The reason ATMs use different authentication mechanisms than checks is simply a matter of engineering the right cost/benefit tradeoff for preventing these two kinds of crime.<br /><br />Second, the process of riding on an airline flight does require identity, although not the high-value flesh-and-blood human identity that you&#8217;re talking about.  When I reserve a ticket online, pick up the boarding pass at an e-ticket machine, and present that pass to board my flight, the airline necessarily cares a great deal that the person or persons who do these three things are connected somehow.  If someone else spoofs the process and picks up my ticket, then the airline will have an unhappy customer on their hands.  The relevant identity here is &#8220;Passenger 123&#8243;, which may represent one person or a group of people (maybe someone else makes my reservation for me and fetches my boarding pass), but it is nonetheless an identity that persists between interactions and possesses privileges.<br /><br />Where you&#8217;re getting tripped up is the fact that the airlines insist that you surrender a much longer-lived and higher-value identity, not just &#8220;Passenger 123&#8243;, for no good reason.<br /><br />Incidentally, a better discussion of the relationship between identity, authentication, and access control is found at the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_control" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia article on access control</a>.  To be blunt, you seem to be making up new definitions for words that have relatively standard meanings in computer security.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Cog</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34138</link>
		<dc:creator>Cog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 13:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34138</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, it&#039;s kind of early over here on the West Coast, so I&#039;m less than fully coherent.  Corrections...&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Re: my first paragraph above: I phrased this in an odd way.  I was trying to make two points.  First, your definition of identification seems to focus on the matching between a token and its associated state and privileges.  To me that just sounds like authorization.  There&#039;s always an authentication step, even if that step&#039;s as simple as recognizing your sister&#039;s face.  Second, your criteria for calling something an &quot;identity&quot; seems to be based on how valuable that thing is.  But there&#039;s always an identity involved whenever two interactions need to be linked.  The distinction between identities and non-identities is unclear.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The rest of my comment was an elaboration on these two ideas.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Re: my third paragraph above: legal punishments are not better authentication mechanisms, but they are ways that we dissuade spoofing of the authentication mechanisms that exist.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, it&#8217;s kind of early over here on the West Coast, so I&#8217;m less than fully coherent.  Corrections&#8230;</p>

<p>Re: my first paragraph above: I phrased this in an odd way.  I was trying to make two points.  First, your definition of identification seems to focus on the matching between a token and its associated state and privileges.  To me that just sounds like authorization.  There&#8217;s always an authentication step, even if that step&#8217;s as simple as recognizing your sister&#8217;s face.  Second, your criteria for calling something an &#8220;identity&#8221; seems to be based on how valuable that thing is.  But there&#8217;s always an identity involved whenever two interactions need to be linked.  The distinction between identities and non-identities is unclear.</p>

<p>The rest of my comment was an elaboration on these two ideas.</p>

<p>Re: my third paragraph above: legal punishments are not better authentication mechanisms, but they are ways that we dissuade spoofing of the authentication mechanisms that exist.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Cog</title>
		<link>http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/comment-page-1/#comment-34137</link>
		<dc:creator>Cog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 13:14:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://techliberation.com/2006/07/14/authorization-identification-or-alternatives-authentication/#comment-34137</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You seem to be confusing the issue of authorization (i.e., matching an identity to its privileges) with the issue of an identity&#039;s value.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The Hotmail user foobar123@hotmail.com is a low-value identity, and accordingly one uses low-strength mechanisms (username and password) to authenticate that identity.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The &quot;Jim Harper&quot; account-holder at Bank X is a high-value identity, and accordingly one presumably uses high-strength mechanisms (principally, the various punishments available within the legal system) to authenticate that identity.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;There is no hard distinction between foobar123@hotmail.com and &quot;Jim Harper&quot; at Bank X.  Both identities persist between interaction sessions and have associated privileges.  It is not the case that one is an &quot;identity&quot; and the other is not.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Also, ATM withdrawals and airplane flights do require identification, although not in precisely the way Tim means.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;First, both writing a check and making an ATM withdrawal hinge on a spoofable authentication process, so I don&#039;t see the distinction you&#039;re trying to draw here.  Presumably there are even circumstances (you break your hand and your wife takes care of writing the checks this month) when you would want the check-writing process to be spoofed.  The reason ATMs use different authentication mechanisms than checks is simply a matter of engineering the right cost/benefit tradeoff for preventing these two kinds of crime.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Second, the process of riding on an airline flight does require identity, although not the high-value flesh-and-blood human identity that you&#039;re talking about.  When I reserve a ticket online, pick up the boarding pass at an e-ticket machine, and present that pass to board my flight, the airline necessarily cares a great deal that the person or persons who do these three things are connected somehow.  If someone else spoofs the process and picks up my ticket, then the airline will have an unhappy customer on their hands.  The relevant identity here is &quot;Passenger 123&quot;, which may represent one person or a group of people (maybe someone else makes my reservation for me and fetches my boarding pass), but it is nonetheless an identity that persists between interactions and possesses privileges.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Where you&#039;re getting tripped up is the fact that the airlines insist that you surrender a much longer-lived and higher-value identity, not just &quot;Passenger 123&quot;, for no good reason.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Incidentally, a better discussion of the relationship between identity, authentication, and access control is found at the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_control&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia article on access control&lt;/a&gt;.  To be blunt, you seem to be making up new definitions for words that have relatively standard meanings in computer security.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to be confusing the issue of authorization (i.e., matching an identity to its privileges) with the issue of an identity&#8217;s value.</p>

<p>The Hotmail user <a href="mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com">foobar123@hotmail.com</a> is a low-value identity, and accordingly one uses low-strength mechanisms (username and password) to authenticate that identity.</p>

<p>The &#8220;Jim Harper&#8221; account-holder at Bank X is a high-value identity, and accordingly one presumably uses high-strength mechanisms (principally, the various punishments available within the legal system) to authenticate that identity.</p>

<p>There is no hard distinction between <a href="mailto:foobar123@hotmail.com">foobar123@hotmail.com</a> and &#8220;Jim Harper&#8221; at Bank X.  Both identities persist between interaction sessions and have associated privileges.  It is not the case that one is an &#8220;identity&#8221; and the other is not.</p>

<p>Also, ATM withdrawals and airplane flights do require identification, although not in precisely the way Tim means.</p>

<p>First, both writing a check and making an ATM withdrawal hinge on a spoofable authentication process, so I don&#8217;t see the distinction you&#8217;re trying to draw here.  Presumably there are even circumstances (you break your hand and your wife takes care of writing the checks this month) when you would want the check-writing process to be spoofed.  The reason ATMs use different authentication mechanisms than checks is simply a matter of engineering the right cost/benefit tradeoff for preventing these two kinds of crime.</p>

<p>Second, the process of riding on an airline flight does require identity, although not the high-value flesh-and-blood human identity that you&#8217;re talking about.  When I reserve a ticket online, pick up the boarding pass at an e-ticket machine, and present that pass to board my flight, the airline necessarily cares a great deal that the person or persons who do these three things are connected somehow.  If someone else spoofs the process and picks up my ticket, then the airline will have an unhappy customer on their hands.  The relevant identity here is &#8220;Passenger 123&#8243;, which may represent one person or a group of people (maybe someone else makes my reservation for me and fetches my boarding pass), but it is nonetheless an identity that persists between interactions and possesses privileges.</p>

<p>Where you&#8217;re getting tripped up is the fact that the airlines insist that you surrender a much longer-lived and higher-value identity, not just &#8220;Passenger 123&#8243;, for no good reason.</p>

<p>Incidentally, a better discussion of the relationship between identity, authentication, and access control is found at the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_control" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia article on access control</a>.  To be blunt, you seem to be making up new definitions for words that have relatively standard meanings in computer security.</p>]]></content:encoded>
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