Meta-Critique

by on May 16, 2006 · 26 comments

Assorted comments have filtered in concerning my DMCA paper, and I respond here:

SympathyI again underscore that I am sympathetic to Ed Felten and others caught up in litigation. My point was not to trivialize their concerns, but to put them in a larger perspective. The plight of a hungry person arrested for snatching bread is a real plight, but it is not an argument for abolishing the law in question. I am not an “act utilitarian.” I do not believe that every application of a rule needs to be optimal for the rule to do more good than harm. The courts are good at dealing with individual hard cases; forums exists for reform and for exemptions; but, still, in boundary disputes, lines must be drawn somewhere. If one has a strong concept of natural rights, that will be jarring. But I believe that rights need some flexibility or they will not survive the transformation of the economy into one where less value is bound up in physical capital and more in intellectual capital.

Piracy and more Piracy and Less PiracyYes, there is rather a lot of it, isn’t there? Offline, online, and so on. If DRM does nothing to impede it, and if keeping hacker/cracker tools in the realm of black market or grey market does nothing to inconvenience anyone even slightly, then that is certainly a problem. But I do think that there is a vast stretch amount of ground between failing completely and preventing all piracy of any kind. And although there is a great deal of piracy going on, there could easily be a great deal more.

A note about P2P. Of course the DMCA doesn’t do anything about that, the stuff is already decrypted. To address that problem, we have the Grokster case. Different problem, but similar analysis. Markets can contend with black-market P2P, fraught with viruses and other nasty things. The expectations of students are misleading here. Students are used to getting things for free from their parents and others. They generally do not buy the machines or software they use, and have little cash flow to spend on content. So they are not averse to risking giving their machines horrible diseases, and on the other hand “need” to get content for free. They have a great deal of time on their hands. Flash forward a few years; these same people have jobs, many of those jobs (an increasing number) will involve intellectual property (journalism, photography, science, trade secrets). They will be short on time and have more money. They will be much more wary of viruses. Their views are quite likely to evolve.

If DRM itself is all a waste of effort, well, one ought to see investors supporting business models that use something else. But, again, we see only a few small experiments. Very few. Very small. I find it extremely implausible that everyone across a wide range of content developers–games, music, movies, photos, books, and all their investors so on, should be entirely lacking in vision. There is money to be made here.

It remains possible that someone will come forward and discover how it is to be done without relying on any of the types of boundaries that have traditionally been used. The idea of voluntary compliance is attractive, but unrealistic in a large community. People do voluntarily comply with a great many laws. But how these norms came to be internalized is, in part, due to centuries of past enforcement patterns and the gradual evolution of human expectations accordingly.

It is also possible that some of the need for liability rules to take up the slack on the enforcement side would lessen if the Internet for other reasons evolves in the direction of being more friendly to enforcement. An infrastructure supporting identification, authentication, and reputation mechanisms might help. But bear in mind that should such an infrastructure develop, so will efforts to crack and spoof, and then we are right back at the problem of the DMCA again.

Beyond Short Papers and Hard Arguments The best response to my paper comes from Fred Von Loehmann at EFF, who brings the argument back to the question of whether the DMCA and/or DRM is needed at all. The larger point of my paper is that if the DMCA is necessary, the hard cases we have seen cannot justify its repeal, but rather call for tinkering or further explication from the courts; I underscore that my paper was not intended as a final or complete defense of the DMCA, it would have had to be much longer. But FVL’s argument takes us beyond the scope of the paper, where I think the debate is more serious.

To justify repeal, one would need to show that the DMCA is not necessary for the viability of markets. This argument can take two forms:

a) Arguing that DRM alone will do the trick. This tack is generally not taken, because DMCA skeptics are often DRM skeptics as well. But we could try one without the other. The question is, can the market stand the lack of security? Not the mere existence of hacker and cracker tools, but their perfection and mass marketing by corporate legions. I think it is implausible. But I doubt there is a general answer to this question for all media for all time. A study might show a healthy market for music sales pre-DMCA; or a failing market. Neither proves the case one way or another. Because every year, every day, markets change. So what is the answer? We can only come up with rules of thumb and hope to do more good than harm. At the time the DMCA was passed, I would say that the burden of proof was on advocates of the law to show that it was unlikely that investment in quality content would go forward without it. But now the law has been around for a few years and while there have been problems, again, these problems are far from overwhelming. Investment in content has picked up. Maybe a coincidence, but it seems implausible. I’m afraid the burden of proof is now on the other side.

b) Arguing that both DRM and the DMCA are the wrong way to go, as FVL does. This is a harder argument to pursue than a) above. One would need a very strong demonstration of realistic alternatives. Fortunately us abstract thinkers need not tax ourselves to come up with them. As I note above, there is money to be made here. Entrepreneurs ought to be doing this, trying different things to see what works. But, again, it isn’t happening except on a small scale here and there.

I’ve never seen DRM skeptics explain this away convincingly. If they are correct that the content industry (the entire morass of it, games and software and music and movies and… on and on) is populated by idiots, well, that should attract even MORE investment in alternatives. Other arguments hints that “the media” have some kind of monopoly or cartel-based power. But on close examination, the media fractures into a hundred subparts most of which are pretty competitive and furthermore compete against each other. The idea that a cartel would be stable seems more than far-fetched. The whole structure would be inefficient… it ought to be attracting alternative business models like flies.

And this is not happening. Because in the absense of some infrastructure to support trust, no investment. Grokster was not an alternative business model; it does not produce content, it merely moves it around.

Details, Details

I add that if I was unkind to Tim in my discussion of errors in his paper, I do apologize. Fact-checking is a passion with me. People tend not to give libertarian policy analysts the benefit of the doubt; errors reflect poorly on all of us, and tend to give rise to (groundless) accusations of deliberate distortion.

Re the CSS discussion: My main point, I reiterate, is that there is no evidence that the CSS licensing process is hostile to Linux. If it were inherently impossible to comply with both the Linux license and DRM, there wouldn’t be any Linux players at all. If “open” must mean one can’t hide anything from the user, well, open source is going to have problems implementing any security technique, but that would be a limitation of open source and has little to do with the DMCA. But I don’t believe that it means that.

Re the DeCSS discussion: Seth F. cites the transcript of testimony from the DeCSS case. The difficulties that I referred to in treating DeCSS like a fine example of open source teamwork, however, stem from events outside of the scope of the inquiry in this case. I was referring DeCSS developer Jon Johansson’s “borrowing” Derek Fawcus’s code without attribution or complying with the GPL, the difficulty in persuading him to release the DeCSS source code at all, and, finally, the fact that DeCSS was released first as a Windows application. I probably ought not to have opened up this can of worms at all, as it doesn’t particularly matter what the purpose of DeCSS was; the effect of a legalized DeCSS was likely to be mischievous.

  • http://www.blindmindseye.com MikeT

    Solveig, there are good examples such as the Apache web server that have excellent security track records. The flaw exists in the code regardless of the licensing scheme. In that sense, OSS is no more or less secure than proprietary code.

    I just don’t understand your squeamishness about getting the government involved as the primary mechanism of enforcement. Why don’t we start allowing local police forces to fine people under modest federal copyright laws the way we allow them to arrest illegal immigrants?

    One could also point to firearms as a legitimate counterexample to your point: “doesn’t particularly matter what the purpose of DeCSS was; the effect of a legalized DeCSS was likely to be mischievous.” Firearms are frequently used by criminals. They’re also frequently used by law-abiding citizens. We punish people on their use, not for the weapon itself except in those “progressive” parts of the country whose murder rates approach Somalia, the Palestinian Authority, Southern Lebanon or Kosovo.

  • Doug Lay

    DRM is less widely used in the software industry now than it was 20 years ago. The use of dongles, which was once pretty widespread, is now limited to fairly high-priced apps. Attempts at copy-protecting distribution media have also largely fallen by the wayside. The software industry hasn’t renounced DRM, but it seems safe to say they do not look to DRM as a PRIMARY mechanism for protecting their revenues.

    There seems to be general agreement here that DRM does have some effect (how much is uncertain) on curbing schoolyard or “meatspace” piracy, but more or less NO effect on professional priracy or P2P (or “cyberspace”) piracy. So, content industries by and large like DRM (and the DMCA) because they want to reduce schoolyard piracy. It’s always been a problem for them. The thing is, the DMCA was sold as a solution to a NEW problem (you know, that very….difficult enforcement problem), not a solution to the same-old schoolyard piracy problem. However, the DMCA is an utter failure at solving that new, still very….difficult problem. The content industry may appreciate the help, however minor, the DMCA provides in solving their old, old problem, but many other groups (consumer electronics manufacturers, consumers who like to exercise fair use, open-source developers) feel like the trade-off is not worth it, especially given the dishonesty with which the new law is being marketed.

  • http://www.blindmindseye.com MikeT

    Solveig, there are good examples such as the Apache web server that have excellent security track records. The flaw exists in the code regardless of the licensing scheme. In that sense, OSS is no more or less secure than proprietary code.


    I just don’t understand your squeamishness about getting the government involved as the primary mechanism of enforcement. Why don’t we start allowing local police forces to fine people under modest federal copyright laws the way we allow them to arrest illegal immigrants?


    One could also point to firearms as a legitimate counterexample to your point: “doesn’t particularly matter what the purpose of DeCSS was; the effect of a legalized DeCSS was likely to be mischievous.” Firearms are frequently used by criminals. They’re also frequently used by law-abiding citizens. We punish people on their use, not for the weapon itself except in those “progressive” parts of the country whose murder rates approach Somalia, the Palestinian Authority, Southern Lebanon or Kosovo.

  • eric

    The vast majority of music CD titles are released without any sort of DRM. This approximates the situation in the software world as described by Doug Lay — they could apply DRM if they wished, but usually choose not to.

    If DRM is a good answer, and good business, why isn’t it more frequently applied? It appears to me that the market is speaking loud and clear.

  • http://www.techliberation.com/ Tim

    Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful comments!

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to pursue the meatspace vs. cyberspace issue a little bit further. I think you just acknowledged that the DMCA doen’t do anything to prevent what I call cyberspace infringement. Which means that the argument for the DMCA must rest on its ability to deter meatspace infringement, correct?

    If so, how is this any different from arguments over previous generations of copying technology? The recording industry wanted legal restrictions on tape recorders, VCRs, CD burners and MP3 players, too. In most cases, Congress and the courts concluded that it’s not worth banning new copying technologies in order to reduce piracy.

    The DMCA is a ban on copying technologies too. I fail to see how it’s different from previous generations. Yes, the DMCA reduces piracy somewhat by making it more inconvenient for me to burn a copy of my DVD for my neighbor, in the same way that a ban on VCRs or CD-Rs would have reduced piracy in the 1980s and 1990s, respectively, by preventing me from making unauthorized copies of those media types. But the DMCA also makes it illegal for me to watch my DVD on my iPod or most Linux computers. It’s not clear to me why these activities are any less legitimate than time-shifting or making personal copies of CDs. Moreover, since

    To the extent that we’re talking about meatspace infringement, this may be a hard problem, but it’s not a new problem. On the other hand, if we’re talking about cyberspace infringement, it’s definitely a new and hard problem, but it’s not a problem that the DMCA has any role in solving. Asking us to solve the P2P problem–a problem that you’ve acknowledged the DMCA doesn’t solve–doesn’t seem like a reasonable request.

    I’m also extremely interested in details on my “breaches of professional ettiquette.”

    Thanks.

  • Doug Lay

    DRM is less widely used in the software industry now than it was 20 years ago. The use of dongles, which was once pretty widespread, is now limited to fairly high-priced apps. Attempts at copy-protecting distribution media have also largely fallen by the wayside. The software industry hasn’t renounced DRM, but it seems safe to say they do not look to DRM as a PRIMARY mechanism for protecting their revenues.

    There seems to be general agreement here that DRM does have some effect (how much is uncertain) on curbing schoolyard or “meatspace” piracy, but more or less NO effect on professional priracy or P2P (or “cyberspace”) piracy. So, content industries by and large like DRM (and the DMCA) because they want to reduce schoolyard piracy. It’s always been a problem for them. The thing is, the DMCA was sold as a solution to a NEW problem (you know, that very….difficult enforcement problem), not a solution to the same-old schoolyard piracy problem. However, the DMCA is an utter failure at solving that new, still very….difficult problem.
    The content industry may appreciate the help, however minor, the DMCA provides in solving their old, old problem, but many other groups (consumer electronics manufacturers, consumers who like to exercise fair use, open-source developers) feel like the trade-off is not worth it, especially given the dishonesty with which the new law is being marketed.

  • eric

    The vast majority of music CD titles are released without any sort of DRM. This approximates the situation in the software world as described by Doug Lay — they could apply DRM if they wished, but usually choose not to.

    If DRM is a good answer, and good business, why isn’t it more frequently applied? It appears to me that the market is speaking loud and clear.

  • http://www.techliberation.com/ Tim

    Thanks for the lengthy and thoughtful comments!

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to pursue the meatspace vs. cyberspace issue a little bit further. I think you just acknowledged that the DMCA doen’t do anything to prevent what I call cyberspace infringement. Which means that the argument for the DMCA must rest on its ability to deter meatspace infringement, correct?

    If so, how is this any different from arguments over previous generations of copying technology? The recording industry wanted legal restrictions on tape recorders, VCRs, CD burners and MP3 players, too. In most cases, Congress and the courts concluded that it’s not worth banning new copying technologies in order to reduce piracy.

    The DMCA is a ban on copying technologies too. I fail to see how it’s different from previous generations. Yes, the DMCA reduces piracy somewhat by making it more inconvenient for me to burn a copy of my DVD for my neighbor, in the same way that a ban on VCRs or CD-Rs would have reduced piracy in the 1980s and 1990s, respectively, by preventing me from making unauthorized copies of those media types. But the DMCA also makes it illegal for me to watch my DVD on my iPod or most Linux computers. It’s not clear to me why these activities are any less legitimate than time-shifting or making personal copies of CDs. Moreover, since

    To the extent that we’re talking about meatspace infringement, this may be a hard problem, but it’s not a new problem. On the other hand, if we’re talking about cyberspace infringement, it’s definitely a new and hard problem, but it’s not a problem that the DMCA has any role in solving. Asking us to solve the P2P problem–a problem that you’ve acknowledged the DMCA doesn’t solve–doesn’t seem like a reasonable request.

    I’m also extremely interested in details on my “breaches of professional ettiquette.”

    Thanks.

  • http://www.blindmindseye.com MikeT

    The only way for the studios to solve the P2P problem is to create movies that are cheaper and sell them for prices that make it too convenient to not buy from them. Selling the DVD data for a movie should cost them $5-$6 for the bandwidth. I think most people would gladly pay that much money to be able to just pop a disk in and burn a copy of a movie. The studios could then have the DRM simply charge the customer $4-$5 to burn a new copy. That’d be a nice chunk of change for them, and a way to profit off of people sharing movies. After the retail and distribution costs, that’s probably what they’re making in profit off of a Wal-Mart DVD sale right now.

  • Steve R.

    Well, I did try to locate Solveig’s underlying paper, but the link brought me back to this page, so I hope that my comments are still approriately focused.

    I do not believe that we have a “acceptable” orientation for discussing the use of the DMCA and the implementation of DRM technologies. The current “incorrect” approach is to simply view DCMA/DRM as a means of the content owner to “protect” his/her intellectual content. I find this “incomplete’ approach to be highly disturbing. The discussion on DCMA/DRM seems to overlook the fact that the proDMCA/RM crowd asserts that they have a right to trespass onto your computer to “protect” themselves. Furthermore, your rights to control YOUR computer are being legislated away. As an example of this process Tim made a very good point in his paper “Circumventing Competition; The Perverse Consequences of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act” that corporate executive could have you thrown in jail if you “steal’ his content, but if the executive “steals” your content, you have to go through the slow and expensive civil court process. The power of the State should not be used to guarantee corporate profits. In summary the discussion above should not be soley on the “rights” of the content provider, but also balanced with a discussion on the “rights” of the unintended victims of this abusive legislation and abusive technology.

    Addtional thoughts. I am not opposed to a company implementing DRM, ala the iPod (as long as the hardware is clearly identified as being “locked” to a specific vendor.) The Sony Rootkit debacle is an example of a content provider abusing its right to protect its content by making stealth changes to a computers operating system which also had the potential effect of crippling it, reducing its usability, and even disabling a competitor’s product from working on your commputer.

    Even more additional thoughts, now that jazzed up. What happens to a user if they buy into venodr’s X DRM and the vendor goes out-of-busines??? The user who spent $$$ to aquire the content will be potentially left with worthless unusable inventory. Suppose we live long enough for the content to enter the public domain, how are we going to strip the DRM off the content so that it can be played on any device??? I’ve rambled too long.

  • http://www.blindmindseye.com MikeT

    The only way for the studios to solve the P2P problem is to create movies that are cheaper and sell them for prices that make it too convenient to not buy from them. Selling the DVD data for a movie should cost them $5-$6 for the bandwidth. I think most people would gladly pay that much money to be able to just pop a disk in and burn a copy of a movie. The studios could then have the DRM simply charge the customer $4-$5 to burn a new copy. That’d be a nice chunk of change for them, and a way to profit off of people sharing movies. After the retail and distribution costs, that’s probably what they’re making in profit off of a Wal-Mart DVD sale right now.

  • http://www2.blogger.com/profile/14380731108416527657 Steve R.

    Well, I did try to locate Solveig’s underlying paper, but the link brought me back to this page, so I hope that my comments are still approriately focused.

    I do not believe that we have a “acceptable” orientation for discussing the use of the DMCA and the implementation of DRM technologies. The current “incorrect” approach is to simply view DCMA/DRM as a means of the content owner to “protect” his/her intellectual content. I find this “incomplete’ approach to be highly disturbing. The discussion on DCMA/DRM seems to overlook the fact that the proDMCA/RM crowd asserts that they have a right to trespass onto your computer to “protect” themselves. Furthermore, your rights to control YOUR computer are being legislated away. As an example of this process Tim made a very good point in his paper “Circumventing Competition; The Perverse Consequences of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act” that corporate executive could have you thrown in jail if you “steal’ his content, but if the executive “steals” your content, you have to go through the slow and expensive civil court process. The power of the State should not be used to guarantee corporate profits. In summary the discussion above should not be soley on the “rights” of the content provider, but also balanced with a discussion on the “rights” of the unintended victims of this abusive legislation and abusive technology.

    Addtional thoughts. I am not opposed to a company implementing DRM, ala the iPod (as long as the hardware is clearly identified as being “locked” to a specific vendor.) The Sony Rootkit debacle is an example of a content provider abusing its right to protect its content by making stealth changes to a computers operating system which also had the potential effect of crippling it, reducing its usability, and even disabling a competitor’s product from working on your commputer.

    Even more additional thoughts, now that jazzed up. What happens to a user if they buy into venodr’s X DRM and the vendor goes out-of-busines??? The user who spent $$$ to aquire the content will be potentially left with worthless unusable inventory. Suppose we live long enough for the content to enter the public domain, how are we going to strip the DRM off the content so that it can be played on any device??? I’ve rambled too long.

  • http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com Ed Felten

    The statement that “If ‘open’ must mean one can’t hide anything* from the user, well, open source is going to have problems implementing *any security technique…” shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of computer security.

    In fact, security is enhanced by the user’s understanding of how the system works, just as aviation safety is enhanced by the pilot’s understanding of how the plane works.

  • http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com Ed Felten

    The statement that “If ‘open’ must mean one can’t hide anything* from the user, well, open source is going to have problems implementing *any security technique…” shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of computer security.

    In fact, security is enhanced by the user’s understanding of how the system works, just as aviation safety is enhanced by the pilot’s understanding of how the plane works.

  • Steve R.

    A new post “Singleton, The DMCA and Interoperability” contained the link to Singleton’s paper “The DMCA Dialectic: Towards Constructive Criticism”. Singleton’s paper does acknowledge a fundamental concern of “boundary-setting”. Within that context, my post of May 16, 2006 is that Singleton’s paper is only viewing the issue from the DRM/DCMA side of the boundary fence. The viewpoint from the consumer side of the boundary fence is overlooked.

    Singleton calls for a “constructive” debate. A constructive debate would have to recognize the boundary that DRM/DCMA does NOT add value to the legitimate consumer, it should not give the DRM/DCMA crowd the right to trespass on your side of the fence, it deprives the legitimate user of fair use, and actually transfers liability to the legitimate user. By “liability” I mean the $$cost, maintenance, time, security, performance issues of keeping a personal computer operating.

  • Doug Lay

    I see that youtube.com is claiming 40 million viewers, with no DRM in sight. A marginal experiment? Or is there another reason they don’t count?

  • http://www2.blogger.com/profile/14380731108416527657 Steve R.

    A new post “Singleton, The DMCA and Interoperability” contained the link to Singleton’s paper “The DMCA Dialectic: Towards Constructive Criticism”. Singleton’s paper does acknowledge a fundamental concern of “boundary-setting”. Within that context, my post of May 16, 2006 is that Singleton’s paper is only viewing the issue from the DRM/DCMA side of the boundary fence. The viewpoint from the consumer side of the boundary fence is overlooked.

    Singleton calls for a “constructive” debate. A constructive debate would have to recognize the boundary that DRM/DCMA does NOT add value to the legitimate consumer, it should not give the DRM/DCMA crowd the right to trespass on your side of the fence, it deprives the legitimate user of fair use, and actually transfers liability to the legitimate user. By “liability” I mean the $$cost, maintenance, time, security, performance issues of keeping a personal computer operating.

  • Doug Lay

    I see that youtube.com is claiming 40 million viewers, with no DRM in sight. A marginal experiment? Or is there another reason they don’t count?

  • enigma_foundry

    Again Solveig is unwillng to even acknowledge the argument that DMCA violates First Amendment Rights.

    I would postulate that the question of whether or not there exists a business model for content delivery over the web without DRM is irrelevant, if DRM and DCMA violate my First Amendment rights.

    In others, First Amendment comes first, and if the business model of some media companies goes south because of my Frist amendment Rights, well that’s the price we pay for freedom.

    Although I don’t believe content delivery free of DRM can’t make money (note Doug’s comments re You Tube) the business model will have to adapt to existiing in a free society. But that is what business is very good at doing–adapting…

  • john

    DRM is not a market derived solution to piracy, it is a method to protect the current business model. Apple uses it to lock out competitors; the media industry uses it on DVDs to control innovation and limit features they don’t like; the media industry is now pushing broadcast flags for both radio and TV to allow them to do the same thing.

    This is all aided and abetted by the DMCA, which makes it illegal to circumvent DRM. The DMCA is what is taking away fair use rights, not DRM per se. Without the DMCA, cracking tools would be readily available for any DRM; with the DMCA, only legitimate consumers are inconvenienced, not the “pirates”.

    This irritates the hell out of me, but it doesn’t really affect me, as I refuse to knowingly buy any product that has DRM.

  • http://enigmafoundry.wordpress.com eee_eff

    Again Solveig is unwillng to even acknowledge the argument that DMCA violates First Amendment Rights.

    I would postulate that the question of whether or not there exists a business model for content delivery over the web without DRM is irrelevant, if DRM and DCMA violate my First Amendment rights.

    In others, First Amendment comes first, and if the business model of some media companies goes south because of my Frist amendment Rights, well that’s the price we pay for freedom.

    Although I don’t believe content delivery free of DRM can’t make money (note Doug’s comments re You Tube) the business model will have to adapt to existiing in a free society. But that is what business is very good at doing–adapting…

  • john

    DRM is not a market derived solution to piracy, it is a method to protect the current business model. Apple uses it to lock out competitors; the media industry uses it on DVDs to control innovation and limit features they don’t like; the media industry is now pushing broadcast flags for both radio and TV to allow them to do the same thing.

    This is all aided and abetted by the DMCA, which makes it illegal to circumvent DRM. The DMCA is what is taking away fair use rights, not DRM per se. Without the DMCA, cracking tools would be readily available for any DRM; with the DMCA, only legitimate consumers are inconvenienced, not the “pirates”.

    This irritates the hell out of me, but it doesn’t really affect me, as I refuse to knowingly buy any product that has DRM.

  • enigma_foundry

    “The statement that “If ‘open’ must mean one can’t hide anything* from the user, well, open source is going to have problems implementing *any security technique…” shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of computer security. In fact, security is enhanced by the user’s understanding of how the system works, just as aviation safety is enhanced by the pilot’s understanding of how the plane works.”

    Ed point well taken but Solveig and you have different understanding of the word security.

    She means security of a few large corporations from competition. FOSS does not implement that type of security…

  • http://enigmafoundry.wordpress.com eee_eff

    “The statement that “If ‘open’ must mean one can’t hide anything* from the user, well, open source is going to have problems implementing *any security technique…” shows a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of computer security.
    In fact, security is enhanced by the user’s understanding of how the system works, just as aviation safety is enhanced by the pilot’s understanding of how the plane works.”

    Ed point well taken but Solveig and you have different understanding of the word security.

    She means security of a few large corporations from competition. FOSS does not implement that type of security…

  • enigma_foundry

    “A note about P2P. Of course the DMCA doesn’t do anything about that, the stuff is already decrypted. To address that problem, we have the Grokster case. Different problem, but similar analysis. Markets can contend with black-market P2P, fraught with viruses and other nasty things.”

    Hmmm..my spin detector went off. As I understand the Grokster decision, it not outlaw P2P per se, but only applied because the advertising etc. of the software had encouraged copyright violations.

    As I understand it, “the substantial non-infringing use” test of Sony still holds, and since P2P does have a non-infringing use (for example I use it to get and help distribute several distributions of Linux and BSD) so I can still use P2P.

    This is really vintage PFF, putting a spin on legal decisons, to suit their perverted world view in which anything not liked by a few very large media companies is made illegal…

  • http://enigmafoundry.wordpress.com eee_eff

    “A note about P2P. Of course the DMCA doesn’t do anything about that, the stuff is already decrypted. To address that problem, we have the Grokster case. Different problem, but similar analysis. Markets can contend with black-market P2P, fraught with viruses and other nasty things.”

    Hmmm..my spin detector went off. As I understand the Grokster decision, it not outlaw P2P per se, but only applied because the advertising etc. of the software had encouraged copyright violations.

    As I understand it, “the substantial non-infringing use” test of Sony still holds, and since P2P does have a non-infringing use (for example I use it to get and help distribute several distributions of Linux and BSD) so I can still use P2P.

    This is really vintage PFF, putting a spin on legal decisons, to suit their perverted world view in which anything not liked by a few very large media companies is made illegal…

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